Who came in the flesh?

It seems that the belief and conviction that Y’shua has come in the flesh is quite an important one. In the first letter of Yahuchanan, chapter 4, verses 2 and 3 the following statement is made: “Every spirit that confesses that Y’shua Messiah has come in the flesh is of Elohim, and every spirit that does not confess that Y’shua Messiah has come in the flesh is not of Elohim.” The importance of this belief is reiterated in 2 Joh 1:7 “Because many who are leading astray went out into the world who do not confess Y’shua Messiah as coming in the flesh. This one is he who is leading astray and the anti-messiah.”

That this was a most essential element of the early, apostolic belief, is confirmed by the fact that the same basic confession (“Y’shua has come in the flesh”) is repeated at least an additional five times in the Messianic Scriptures: Rom 1:3 (Y’shua, his Son, … who came according to the flesh); Rom 8:3 (Elohim sending his own Son in the likeness of flesh); Rom 9:5 (the Messiah according to the flesh); 2 Cor 5:16 (we have known Messiah according to the flesh) and Gal 4:4 (Elohim sent forth His Son, born of a woman).

I would say that these seven Scriptural witnesses are quite clear and unanimous about the conviction that the one who came in the flesh was, in fact, Y’shua, who was subsequently also revealed as the Son of Elohim and the promised Messiah. This should be more than clear already, but just for the sake of absolute clarity, let us put forth a question: If the writers of these verses wanted us to understand that Yahweh came in the flesh, why do they all say that Yahweh sent his Son in the flesh? Language, and the straightforward meaning that language conveys, I believe, is proof in itself that the one who came in the flesh, according to these seven verses, is clearly Y’shua the Son, and not Yahweh the Father. And there is not the slightest hint in any of these seven verses, or their various contexts, that Y’shua was equal to his Father, the same being as his Father, simultaneoulsy man and Elohim, or any of the other mystical and philosophic ideas that are part and parcel of the Trinity doctrine.

Certain scribes and translators have tried, over the centuries, to translate into Scriptures the idea that Yahweh came in the flesh. A perfect example of this is 1Timothy 3:16. The correct translation of the original Greek text is something like this: “He who was revealed in the flesh, declared right in Spirit, was seen by messengers, was proclaimed among nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in esteem”. In the light of what we know about Y’shua and how this knowledge corresponds with what is being described here, and also in the light of what has been revealed in the seven verses mentioned above, it is quite clear that the “He” at the beginning of this verse is referring to Y’shua, and not Yahweh.

Trinity minded scribes, however, have “invented” another reading and have made a few, subtle changes to the original text so that even today (despite the fact that experts have frequently pointed out this blatant “mistake”) one will still find Bibles where this text reads: “God was revealed in the flesh … ” This is not what Shaúl was saying and this is not what the rest of Scriptures are saying! If this verse is translated correctly, it is, in fact, the eighth clear statement that belief in Y’shua as being revealed in the flesh was considered to be most important.

Why all the emphasis on the fact that one has to believe that the Messiah came in the flesh? Behind this question lies one of the least understood beauties of Hebrew wisdom and understanding. It has always been an essential part of Hebrew understanding (an understanding fully supported by Scriptures) that Yahweh had “created” (more correctly: planned, established, ordained) certain essential elements of his involvement with his people, BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD. The Jewish Encyclopaedia mentions the fact that from a Jewish perspective seven persons or things were “created” before the world came into existence: (1) The Torah (2) the Throne of Glory (3) the Sanctuary (4) the Patriarchs (5) Israel (6) the Messiah (7) Repentance.

This view is confirmed by other ancient Hebrew documents: In the Testament of Moses (100 AD) it is said that Moses had been ordained from before the foundation of the world. In the Prayer of Joseph (100 AD) we read that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob have been created before any other work. In Second Enoch (100 AD) it is written that all the souls are prepared for eternity before the composition of the earth. In the Books of Enoch (150 BCE) it is said that Messiah was chosen before the creation of the world. In subsequent Rabbinical literature the same idea is conveyed again and again, especially with regards to the Messiah being “created” before the foundation of the world and “hidden” by the Almighty until the appointed time of his appearance.

That this kind of understanding was shared by the early Messianic believers, is confirmed by verses like these: Matt 13:35 “I shall open My mouth in parables, I shall pour forth what has been hidden from the foundation of the world”; Matt 25:34 “Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the reign prepared for you from the foundation of the world”; Luke 11:50 “so that the blood of all the prophets which was shed from the foundation of the world shall be required of this generation”; Ephes 1:4 “even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world”. This one, in particular, sheds light on the Messiah: 1 Pet 1:20 “(The Messiah) foreknown, indeed, before the foundation of the world, but manifested in these last times for your sakes.”

So now it becomes clear why it was (and still is) so important to believe that the Messiah had come in the flesh. It had nothing to do with being one with Yahweh, or being equal to Yahweh, or being Yahweh, up to a certain point and then becoming flesh for 33 years and then returning to the same status as before. Quite frankly, this is trinity doctrine, not Scriptural teaching. Believing that the Messiah had come in the flesh, is the same as believing that one of the most essential parts of Yahweh’s plan or word (or “logos”) that had existed even before the foundation of the world, had become a reality! It is believing that Y’shua is truly who He claimed to be and who his immediate followers said He was: the promised Messiah and the fulfilment of the numerous prophesies concerning his coming. Before his coming, the Messiah, although being the most important part of Yahweh’s plan since before the foundation of the world, was hidden (in the “bosom” of the Father), but NOW He has come in the flesh! One needs to believe that He had come in the flesh, in order to be clearly identified with Him and those who belong to Him. It is NOT believing that Y’shua is Yahweh in human form! This unheard of idea was clearly very far from the minds of the early followers of Messiah and was only much later incorporated into the trinity way of thinking.

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Robert

John, Jy skryf…> “..In subsequent Rabbinical literature the same idea is conveyed again and again, especially with regards to the Messiah being “created” before the foundation of the world and “hidden” by the Almighty until the appointed time of his appearance..”

Wat wil jy hiermee aandui? Dat die Joodse[Hebreuse] verwagting en definisies van die Messias dieselfde as my en jou definisies is/moet wees of visa versa,..> my en jou definisies dieselfde as die Joodse[Hebreuse] verwagting en definisies moet wees ?

Jy skryf…> “.. It is NOT believing that Y’shua is Yahweh in human form! This unheard of idea was clearly very far from the minds of the early followers of Messiah and was only much later incorporated into the trinity way of thinking..”

Verduidelik vir my, wanneer het die Messias dan sy “towermag” verkry om al die wonderwerke te kan doen as hy soos jy stel geen “Goddelike” eienskappe, maar bloot mens was,… so iets soos Moses en sy towerstaf?

Shalom

Robert

John
Verduidelik vir my, wanneer het die Messias dan sy “towermag” verkry om al die wonderwerke te kan doen as hy soos jy stel geen “Goddelike” eienskappe, maar bloot mens was,… so iets soos Moses en sy towerstaf?
Sal jy vir my asb. Die Messias se eienskappe definieer?
Shabat shalom

Pieter

John, Robert,
Vertrou julle het ‘n geseende Shabbat en Yom Teruah vol vreugde gehad. Ons dien voorwaar ‘n groot Elohim! Mag die Almagtige Sy Woord (Geskrewe en Lewend) in hierdie tye al hoe meer aan ons openbaar sodat ons sal kan onderskei tussen waarheid en verdraaing (“deception”); en tussen dit wat afgesonder (“set-apart”) is en dit wat “profane” is.
Robert, ek wil graag jou eerste vraag opvolg met nog ‘n vraag: wanneer en hoe het Mosheh en die profete hulle “magte” verkry?
(Terloops, persoonlik verkies ek om nie terme soos “towermag/ magiese kragte” in hierdie konteks te gebruik nie – dit hou uitsluitlik verband met die donker kant).
Dit is baie interessant, en duidelik vir ‘n spesifieke doel, dat ‘n profeet soos Elisha (betekenis “My Elohim is salvation”) reeds dieselfde tipe wonderwerke as Y’shua (“YHWH is salvation”) gedoen het ongeveer 850 jaar voor die Mashiach se koms. Nodeloos om te se, die Skrif maak dit duidelik dat Elisha, as YHWH se gestuurde profeet, dit nie in sy eie krag gedoen het nie, maar dat die Almagtige deur hom gewerk het.
Terloops, die herhaling van die patroon van Eliyahu -> Elisha; Yochanan -> Y’shua, is treffende profesie in eie reg. Y’shua is natuurlik nie net nog ‘n profeet nie – al die Almagtige se profete, hoe priesters en konings dui wel op sekere aspekte van Die Gesalfde. Maar uiteindelik het YHWH wel alles geskape (Yes 40:28; 45:18) en die natuur en natuurwette en -kragte is dus ondergeskik aan Hom.
Vader se wonderlike plan is duidelik deur die patrone, “types” en vooruitskouings wat Hy regdeur Sy Tanakh vir ons gee. Die Messiaanse Geskrifte verskaf natuurlik bevestiging van die dele wat reeds waar geword het. Ons moet elkeen waak daarteen om Sy Woord oop te slaan met die vooropgestelde idees geskep deur eeue van indoktrinasie, gebaseer op menslike tradisies, interpretasie en doktrines.
Shalom

Robert

Pieter, jy skryf..> “..Y’shua (“YHWH is salvation”)..”

As die verandering vanaf die naam jesus vir jou belangrik is, soos wat ek glo dit is sal jy weet dat die drie letters *Yah* wat voor *shua*,> staan vir YHVH en NIE soos jy skryf “.. Y’..” nie.

Dit is soos christene sing..;-> halelu*YAH* maw…> prys YHVH

Die gebruik van Y’shua kom vanaf die “jews for jesus” groep wat nie die Jode wat hulle probeer lok wil ontstel nie want daardie Jode wat hulle probeer lok, glo nie dat die komende Messias enige “YAH” eienskappe het nie en sal dus met die gebruik van die “YAH” in Yahshua , onmiddelik verdryf word instede daarvan om gelok te word.

Ek glo nie dat dit jou doel is nie?
Shalom

Pieter

Robert, ek glo die omskrywing in hakies, wat jy self ook weer aanhaal, antwoord eintlik reeds jou vraag. Gegewe die spesifieke onderwerp hier, was my doel met die gebruik van die verkorte vorm juis om gesprekke rondom die uitspraak van die naam van die Messias hier te verhoed. (Ek merk wel iets soortgelyk aan die verkorte vorm in die Masoretiese Teks op, maar dit dalk vir ‘n ander dag).
Re jfj – skryf jy nie moontlik “teveel” aan hulle toe nie? Ek is nie bekend daarmee dat die organisasie enigsens ‘n bewustheid van die Skepper se Naam (gehad) het nie? In my opinie verteenwoordig hulle steeds maar “churchianity”, en dus nie ‘n Mashiach wat die Torah kom vol maak (en volmaak) het nie. Wat ons darem weer terugbring by hierdie onderwerp (net voor John my oor die vingers raps omdat ek heeltemal van die punt af is :) ):
Joh 1:14 – “And the Word became flesh and pitched His tent among us, and we saw His esteem, esteem as of an only brought-forth of a father, complete in favour and truth”.
Joh 1:16,17 – “And out of His completeness we all did receive, and favour upon favour, for the Torah was given through Mosheh – the favour and the truth came through Y’shua Messiah”.
Therefore: Y’shua (if you will allow me :) ) = Word that became flesh = complete in favour and truth
Psa 119:29 – “Remove from me the way of falsehood, And favour me with Your Torah”.
Therefore: Torah = Father’s favour (and by implication = way of truth, i.e. not “the way of falsehood”)
Neh 9:13 – “And You came down on Mount Sinai, and spoke with them from the heavens, and gave them straight right-rulings and Torah of truth, good laws and commands”.
Psa 119:142 – “Your righteousness is righteousness forever, And Your Torah is truth”.
Therefore: Torah = Father’s truth
Therefore: Y’shua is YHWH’s Word/ Torah that became flesh, and in the process He showed us the completeness of YHWH’s favour and truth. In this role, He is of course also the Way to the Father and the Life that the Almighty intended for us to choose (Deb 30:19).
PS. Therefore clear that Joh 1:17 is a parallelism, not an antithesis.
Shalom