The Feasts and the Equinox

Some of you may have seen the mail from a brother in Messiah who lives in Jerusalem and wants believers in other parts of the world to rethink the method they are using to determine when a Scriptural year actually begins, in the light of the Word, but also in the light of what they are experiencing in the land of Israel. I realize that this topic has been discussed and tossed around and laboured upon, many times in the past. Moreover, right now many believers are preparing for Yom Kippur and Sukkot and do not want to engage in a discussion about the timing of the feasts. But let me ask just a few moments of your time. I do not want anyone to alter their plans for this year’s feasts. Please enjoy every moment of what is still in the pipeline for this year, as far as the feasts are concerned. As for myself, I have no intention of taking a different stance on the feasts (in the years to come), unless I am convicted that this is what Yahweh is saying. What I have heard this brother saying, however, made me realize, almost immediately, that all serious believers should at least listen to his appeal and search Scriptures once again, and try to come to an informed, and Scripturally correct decision in this regard. Here are some extracts from the contents of this letter, and the letter in its entirety, including a number of Scriptural references, may be read here.

“As the Jewish New Year and Holy days are just a week away, I wanted to once again bring up the subject of our brother Judah incorrectly starting the year this year in winter, before the turning of the year to spring/summer, after the vernal equinox.”

“What happens living here in Israel is that when a mistake like that is made it will throw off the whole agricultural calendar, and being here we can clearly see the mistake. It is no doubt that it is still summer in Israel and harvest time is NOT here. The temperatures have been in the 90’s or higher and there is no harvest yet for pomegranates, dates, figs, or olives. Most of the above fruits do not even have up to 20% harvest at present. The only fruit that has been in harvest is the grapes which always come in mid to late August.”

“Since the harvest does not even begin until early September at the earliest, and lasts 3 to 4 weeks, and then it would take up to a week to even get to Jerusalem from many places in Israel, it stands to reason that the feast would have to be after the equinox, which is the changing point of the seasons. It is inconceivable that people would leave their harvest to fall off the trees and rot while they come empty handed to Jerusalem for an almost month’s journey roundtrip.”

“When you put on a Hebraic mindset you will clearly see that Yahweh’s biblical calendar is both celestial and agriculture and fully revolves around the harvest of Israel. The feast in the spring and fall could only occur AFTER the harvest is in, which is AFTER the equinox. This is the way it was observed in biblical times … I encourage each of you to pray to Yahweh and with a sincere heart and ask Him to guide you into the truth, which we all seek. Please know I am only writing this to try to help the brethren get a more full understanding of Yahweh’s biblical calendar from Israel and I am not criticizing or judging those who keep a different calendar.”

I am posting this on our Blog so that we can begin with a process, here in South Africa, of discussing the matter openly and freely, trusting Yahweh to guide our minds and guard our hearts, in order for many of us to gain understanding in this regard.

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68 Responses to The Feasts and the Equinox

  1. Rina says:

    I just quickly want to make an observation, may be it is also something that should be considered. Due to the whole change in global weather, wouldn’t it also contribute to the fact that the seasons are changing and that we have an earlier winter/earlier summer some years? Just a thought. I have noticed here in Gauteng that we jumped from winter straight into summer in less than a week. There wasn’t even the remotest sign of spring. Wouldn’t that also contribute to the fact that fruit/vegetables that do work on the seasons/weather patterns would be off cycle as well?

  2. Ya'acov says:

    Shabbat Shalom

    The moment I see the word “equinox”, I see a mindset that does not agree with me. My gut feeling says that I cannot combine a Greek Astronomy concept with a Scriptual way of searching for the truth.

    But reading the letter of this Achi in Jerusalem, I realize that there could be practical problems with the Calendar I believe is the correct Scriptual Calendar and then my question is, where is the error. Me, Scripture, could it be YHWH?

    I KNOW the error is NOT on YHWH’s side, so where do one start to search the solution?

    I don’t have the solution, except to say (as John puts it) that I will be obedient to Elohim.

    Three points that determine my train of thoughts:
    a) I am convinced that the method of determining the beginning of months (http://www.chabad.co.za/library/article_cdo/aid/526874/jewish/Months.htm) and the beginning of the year that was used way back (let’s say in Melech Dawid’s time), is by using the visible renewed moon and the aviv barley.
    b) I realize that this method was changed due to the Sadducees and how it was changed (it is brilliant), but that the situation in (a) above can be restored (with the existence of good communication channels from Jerusalem)

    How could an error possible slip in (did it?).

    A friend of mine in England once remarked that the modern world used genetic manipulation techniques and natural selection to change the yield and the timing of produce, in order to make the harvest time earlier and also lengthen the harvest time, in order to make more money.

    So if some barley ripens three weeks earlier that it should be, could it introduce an error into a calendar depending on the ripening of barley?

    If so, how can one manage the situation?

  3. Amanda says:

    Hallo John, dit sal goed wees as jy jou siening van hierdie epos aan ons kan deurgee. Verder – watter kalender gebruik julle en n.a.v. my vraag – watter dag vier julle Yom Kippur?

  4. Amanda says:

    Ekskuus, John, het nou na jul kalender gekyk en besef my vorige kommentaar was kortsigtig. Sal egter nog steeds jou siening oor die epos wil he wat jy vir ons aangestuur het. Shalom

  5. Rob H says:

    I think it is good to be always examing our understanding of Torah. Knowledge puffs up but Wisdom is from the Almighty, and so we need to have wisdom in dealing with these things and not be too proud to re-examine what we think we know or teach with a haughty attitude.

    A few points on the Feasts;
    1. these are appointed times of YHWH
    2. we are to “practise” them so are ready for the millennial kingdom
    3. we are not all in “The Land”
    4. they are community events to celebrate with each other.

    So let us remember to follow the greatest commands …
    Love your Elohim ….
    Love your neighbour ….

    Rob H
    Durban

  6. John says:

    Thanks for the responses thus far. As I have stated before, this post is intended to encourage discussion and to bring more clarity among the widely nuanced community of believers in Messiah. A few very interesting points have already been made, and I would like to encourage more people to comment on these:

    1. Is there something that we can (or ought to) do when we determine the timing of the feasts, in order to take into account the global changes in the weather and seasonal patterns?

    2. Do we know exactly how the beginning of the year (and the beginning of each month) was determined, at least during the time of the Messiah, and how do our “own methods” compare to that?

    3. Is there a way of sidestepping the complex process of genetic manipulation when we set out to determine the beginning of a Scriptural year?

    4. Why do we have a situation today where we need to ask people “Which calendar are you using?” (with the possibility of 5 or 6 different answers to this question) and is there something that we can (or need to) do in order to become more uniform in our approach to calendar matters?

    5. How should the fact that the majority of us are not living in the “land”, affect our celebration of the feasts – not only with regards to the “when” but also with regards to the “how”?

  7. Tamar Deburg says:

    Please read the following as you are prayerfully studying this issue…It has helped me and my family out…May Yahweh lead you…guide you…shalom

    http://sites.google.com/site/congregationofyahweh/green-ears-or-equinox

  8. John says:

    Against the background of a great variety of viewpoints as to when the proper beginning of each new Scriptural year should be, many of us would like to align our own thinking with the way of thinking that was prevalent during the time of the Messiah and, more specifically, with the “calendar” that was followed by Messiah Himself. If a certain method of determining the timing of the feast days was good enough for Him, it should most certainly be good enough for us.

    It seems clear that during the lifetime of Messiah the decisions regarding calendar issues were made by the Sanhedrin, the supreme council and highest authority of ancient Israel, consisting of 70 to 72 members. Although at certain stages the Sanhedrin was influenced and even made up primarily of Sadducees, there seems to be some evidence that since before the birth of Messiah, up until the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 C.E., and even beyond, the majority of the members of the Sanhedrin were Pharisees, although there may have been a few Sadducees among them too, including the high priest, who normally acted as ex officio chairman or president of the Sanhedrin. On the one hand, the historian Josephus states that the Sadducees were “able to do almost nothing of themselves; for when they become magistrates, as they are unwillingly and by force sometimes obliged to be, they addict themselves to the notions of the Pharisees, because the multitude would not otherwise bear them” (Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews). On the other hand, certain sources express their doubts whether the Pharisees had the final word in the decision making process, during this period. So, it remains difficult to tell which of the two groups had the greater influence, specifically during Messiah’s lifetime – which is a pity, because we know that the Pharisees and the Sadducees had different views with regards to a number of calendar issues.

    How did the Sanhedrin (in Messiah’s time) go about determining when a new calendar year should begin? First of all, the beginnings of the months were determined by direct observation of the new moon. After witnesses had testified that they had seen the new crescent and after their testimony had been thoroughly examined, a new month (“rosh chodesh”) was announced by the Sanhedrin. This announcement was called the “sanctification” of the new month.

    Due to the fact that a year of 12 lunar months was about 11 days shorter than a solar year of 365 days, the Sanhedrin (or a special committee called the Calendar Council) had the mandate to “balance” the solar with the lunar year by adding or intercalating a 13th month every 2 or 3 years, by looking at certain factors: In the Jewish Encyclopedia it is stated (with regards to the time before the destruction of the temple in 70 CE): “If the month of Nisan arrived and the sun was at such a distance from the vernal equinox that it could not reach it by the 16th of the month, then this month was not called Nisan, but Adar Sheni (second).” In his “Ecclesiastical History” the ancient historian Eusebius states “that it (was) necessary that all (the Jews) sacrifice the Passover after the vernal equinox”. Other sources seem to indicate that a new year was introduced when two of the following three factors were present (if not, an extra year was intercalated): (1) The barley in the fields had to be in a satisfactory state of ripeness (2) the fruit on the trees had to be in a satisfactory state of ripeness, and (3) the “tequphah” (equinox) had to be “correctly” positioned. This “correct” positioning of the “tequphah” seems to mean roughly that the equinox had to fall on or before Passover (that is the 14th day of the First month), but in practice the Sanhedrin had the final say. If there was any indication that the First month of Aviv or Nisan, and especially the feast beginning with Passover, would not fall in the proper season of spring, they would announce the intercalation of a 13th month, directly after the 12th month of the previous year.

    If we apply these criteria, theoretically speaking, to the situation this year, 2010, when many believers celebrated Passover (or Pesach) on the 31st of March (11 days after the Spring or Vernal equinox on 20 March) and Sukkot on the 25th of September (2 days after the Autumnal equinox on 23 September), having waited for reports from Israel with regards to the ripeness of the barley, before starting with the month of Aviv, it seems to comply perfectly with the method used during the time of the Messiah. At least two of the three criteria mentioned above, have, in fact, been fulfilled. In my own understanding, the believers who celebrated the feasts of 2010 on the above-mentioned dates, did not do so in error.

    Having said this, in the light of the fact that we do not have a “Sanhedrin” these days who is serious about following only the guidelines of Scriptures when it comes to the festive calendar, it may be a good idea in future not to look at (or enquire about) the state of the barley in Israel alone (or exclusively), but to try to gain additional information about the seasonal conditions in Israel, in order to ensure that a new year is only introduced when indications are clear that springtime has truly arrived. As far as the equinox is concerned, it should remain a general rule of thumb that if the 12th month of the previous year is due to end before or on the 6th of March (14 days before the equinox) we may know, with relative certainty, that a 13th month will have to be intercalated.

    Next year, a very interesting situation is due to unfold. There is a slight possibility that the new moon in Israel, after the twelfth month of the current year, may be seen on Shabbat the 5th of March. The probability, however, is greater for the new moon to be seen for the first time only on Su the 6th of March, which is exactly 14 days before the equinox, if we go according to Greenwich time, but 15 days before the equinox, if we go according to Israel time! If we were to start with a new year on Mo the 7th of March, it means that Pesach will fall on the 20th of March, which is one day short of 21 March, the date of the equinox for Israel. All this seem to indicate that a 13th month will have to be intercalated and that the new Scriptural year will only start on Tu the 5th of April 2011, by which time the barley in Israel will surely have reached a satisfactory degree of ripeness.

  9. Tamar Deburg says:

    http://sites.google.com/site/congregationofyahweh/article2232322

    This is perhaps the most important research that was give to me and my family…You may want to print it out and read it because it is VERY meaty….

  10. Tamar Deburg says:

    Most people go their calender and VOILA….everything is there! Well, ask yourself this….How can a person know WHEN New Moon is… months in advance When Yahweh tells us to LOOK for the New Moon?
    Our calendar system has been calculated in order to NOT interfere with business…

    Amo 8:5 saying, When will the new moon be gone, that we may sell grain?

    Scriptures tell us to LOOK for the New Moon…The reason WHY I emphasize this is because there is NO way to see Conjunction…there are some that teach Conjunction is a New Moon….wrong….It is a Sliver…

    Using Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance we find that when “new” is connected to “moon”, it is always referring to the time when a crescent can be seen at the beginning of the month. It is #2320 meaning “the day of the new moon,” or “the calends of a lunar month,” and “a lunar month, beginning at the new moon.”
    This word is chodesh, pronounced kho-desh, and is from the root #2318 or chadash pronounced Khaw-dash. Chadash means to “polish as a sword.” (We are using GESENIUS’ HEBREW-CHALDEE LEXICON which is numerically coded as with Strong’s numerics.) The primary sense of chadash (#2318) is cutting or polishing. The significance of newness “appears to proceed from that of a sharp polished splendid sword.” As you can see, a new crescent appears as a curved sword blade

    Knowing How to look for New Moon we know that the New year begins with a New Moon….BUT Which New Moon? Yahweh divided….

    Gen 1:14
    14 Then Yahweh said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years;

    Just like clock work the season changes….we have a Spring Equinox and a Fall Equinox….this divides Time into two parts….We begin the New Year ON or after the Spring Equinox…..It’s simple…if you did it before…You’d still be in winter….It’s like looking at a clock and SEEING it is 12 P.M. It is now afternoon….if it is 11:59…it is still morning….same with Equinox…like a clock…
    Once you grasp this…then scriptures tell us How to determine Passover….

    Lev 23:5
    On the fourteenth day of the first month at twilight is the Yahweh’s Passover.

    Why are so many people wrong? Look at it like Sunday worship…Why do so many people worship on Sunday instead of doing it correctly on Sabbath? We all blindly followed the System…well….the System is wrong about Sunday….and it is wrong about the Feast Dates….May Yahweh OPEN our eyes to SEE….

  11. John says:

    Tamar, I fully agree with what you have said concerning the new moon and the Scriptural mandate to look for the visible sliver of the new moon as the “signal” that a new month has begun. With regards to the view that a new year should not be introduced before the Spring (or Vernal) Equinox and that the new moon introducing the first month MUST occur after this equinox (which normally falls on the 20th or 21st of March each year) – it all sounds simple and logical, but do we have any real Scriptural support (or even extra-Scriptural support) for this method of “dividing” a year? This is my honest question, and maybe we can help one another in this regard. I have often seen with other matters of Scriptural importance, that what seems logical to man, is not always in line with the Father’s way of thinking. I have read the (well written) articles that you have referred to previously, as well as other studies in this regard. I have also looked into the verses that are often presented as “proofs” that a new year cannot commence before the Spring Equinox, but I am still not convinced that this matter is as clear-cut and as simple as this.

    The evidence that we have before us seems to indicate (at most) that during the First Century it was only a requirement that Pesach had to fall in the season of Spring, that is, after the Vernal Equinox – not that the beginning of the month of Aviv (or Nisan) had to fall in the season of Spring. If someone has access to sources in which proofs to the contrary may be found, I would very much appreciate if those sources (or the links to those sources) could be made available to us.

    There is no pressing reason to assume that the fact that the first month of the year was called “Aviv” (which means something like “green ears”) suggests that this month had to begin after the Spring Equinox. It seems to me that the name “Aviv” was chosen for this month, simply to indicate that this is the month in which the green ears of the barley will have reached a satisfying degree of ripeness so that (some of) it could be plucked and waved before Yahweh at the feast of the first fruit wave offering which falls in the seven days of Unleavened Bread, following the day of Pesach.

    Verses like Deuteronomy 16:6; Numbers 9:2; Exodus 13:10; Deuteronomy 16:1, Exodus 23:15 and Exodus 34:18 where the words “in its season” or “at its appointed time” are often used, are unanimous about the fact that “Pesach” or “Unleavened Bread” should take place “in its season”, not that the first day of that month should fall in the season of Spring. The Hebrew word being used in most of these cases, if not all, is the well known word for “feast” or “feasts”, namely “mo’ad” or “mo’adim”, which may best be translated as “appointed time(s)”. In context, it seems that this concept of “mo’adim” is primarily a reference to the exact time that Yahweh has set apart for that particular feast, and not so much a reference to the seasons of the year as determined by the Spring and Autumnal Equinoxes.

    It is true that after the Babylonian exile, some aspects of the Babylonian “calendar” may have rubbed off and found a way into the Jewish way of determining their times and seasons, even up to the time of Messiah. It also seems true that the Babylonians, indeed, did not allow the first month of the year to come before the vernal equinox. But we still lack sufficient evidence that the Sanhedrin, during the time of Messiah, followed the same system. What we do know, is that leaders like Ezra and Nehemiah did their best to get rid of certain Babylonian and unscriptural influences and that subsequent generations did not follow the Babylonian way of determining times and seasons, in every respect. In their reckoning as to when a day started and when it ended, it seems that they deviated from the pattern in force in Babylon during the time of exile. For the Babylonians a day started in the morning and ended in the evening. The Jews during the time of Messiah waited for the evening after a Shabbat before they brought their sick to be healed (most probably because they reckoned a Shabbat to stretch from evening to evening – Luke 4:40) and hurried to take down Y’shua’s body from the stake before sunset, because a “high” Shabbat was approaching (John 19:31). This way of viewing a day’s beginning and ending is confirmed by the Jewish historian, Flavius Josephus, who was a First Century “contemporary” of Y’shua and stated that each Shabbat started with the “evening twilight”.

  12. zerodtkjoe says:

    Thanks for the info

  13. seanlopez says:

    Good article

  14. Tamar Deburg says:

    Hi John…my husband is going to dig up more information for you…We proved through historical records and scriptures and will share them with you…It will take us a little more time…We know that you are looking for documented PROOF….That is how we were also…It is a pleasure getting to know you…and our other brothers and sisters :)

  15. Tamar Deburg says:

    This article was written by a brother that had Yahweh’s spirit and followed Yahshua….He is asleep awaiting the resurrection….HalleluYah!

    http://sites.google.com/site/congregationofyahweh/green-ears-or-equinox

  16. I hope you will keep updating your content constantly as you have one dedicated reader here.

  17. Robert says:

    Interesting article here..>

    Does Pesach depend on the ripened Barley?.> http://therefinersfire.org/barley.htm

    Shalom
    Robert

  18. Tamar Deburg says:

    Barley Letter From Israel Ag Minister

    STATE OF ISRAEL

    MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE
    EXTENSION SERVICE
    FIELD CR0PS DEPARTMENT Hakirya, Tel-Aviv June 8, 1983
    Ref.35/24
    Mr. V.E. Richard Baravalle
    Queen’s Bay
    R.R,#3, Nelson
    British Columbia
    Canada, VIL 5P6

    Dear sir,
    I received your letter of May 12, in which you asked for some data about barley. It is real coincidence that recently I have been receiving two other letters from different countries, all dealing with the same subject. Well first of all, I want to give you some general information about barley growing today in our country, which may use as a background for better understanding. As a matter of fact, barley has been diminishing steadily in our country for the last 10-15 years and covers today no more than approximately 10% of the total small grain production. This trend is due to the much lower prices for barley in compare with wheat prices, whereas the yields of both grains are more or less at the same level. The main region for barley growing is in the Negeb (South) between Beer Shebah and the Gaza strip. In the Jordan Valley there is hardly any barley left to day. Among the Arab farmers in the vicinity of Jericho there can still be found some small patches of barley.

    This year was a very exceptional one, from climatic point of view. We have had an extreme wet and cold winter and therefore there was a great delay in the ripening of wheat and bailey. Both are sown as a rule in , November and the harvest starts around the end of April – the beginning of May. As stated I this year, the first wheat and barley have been harvested not before mid of May in the Jordan Valley. However, it is not right of course to make a comparison between to-day and the Ancient time, not as far as concerns the variety of barley and not the way of harvesting. To-day we have to wait with the harvest until the grain is entirely dry which means a moisture content of 12-13% only. Otherwise the mechanical harvester does not perform a clean threshing and the grain cannot be stored without further drying. In the Ancient times and even to-day with primitive methods the barley and Wheat were harvested with a sicle and left on the land in sheaves for further drying. Therefore the crop could be harvested a couple of weeks earlier even if the barley would have been harvested with 20% moisture content. As you probably may know, at the Passover the first omer of barley was brought as sacrifice to the Temple and before this day, the new barley was not allowed to be consumed neither for the animals. New wheat was not allowed to be consumed before Pentecost or at least as long as old wheat was still available. In the Talmud, it is mentioned that there were years that the barley was not yet ripe at Passover. In order to be able to bring the omer sacrifice of barley in time to the Temple, they used to sow barley upon some flat roofs in the Jericho valley, which would be ready and apt to the Sacrifice on the Passover. The Omer is not a big quantity of grain. I guess that this rather extended answer will satisfy you but in case that there is still any information required, don’t hesitate to write again.
    Yours sincerely

    M. Bar-Droma

    Director Field Crops Dept.

  19. Robert Wentzel says:

    John
    Ons is nou so deurmekaar met feesdae se datum bepalings en my vroutjie moet verlof insit vir Sabbat-dae wat gedurende/in die werkweek val!

    Kan jy vir ons “summise/opsom” wat jul/jou gevoel is oor die verskillende sienswyses asb.

    Shabat Shalom.
    Rob

  20. John says:

    Robert, you ask for more clarity with regards to the feast Shabbat days for this year, seeing that some people need enough time to make the necessary leave arrangements with their employers. I’ll try to answer in English, so that people like Tamar can also follow what we say.

    We have started the current discussion some time after Sukkot last year, having learned that some believers felt that our feast cycle last year had started one month too early. After some discussion, no outright conclusion has been reached and it is still my contention that the method of determining the feast cycle that we, and many others, are currently using, although certainly not perfect, is as close as possible to what seems to be the method being used during the lifetime of the Messiah.

    What is this method? First of all, the name of the first month (“Aviv”) and the requirement of Lev 23:10 (“you shall bring a sheaf of the first-fruits of your harvest to the priest”) with reference to a specific day falling in the Week of Unleavened Bread, clearly indicate that the first month should coincide with the time of the year when the barley in Israel reaches the stage when it is ready to be harvested. For this reason we take notice of the reports of groups like the Karaites, concerning the state of ripeness of the barley in Israel.

    It seems, however, that during the time of the Messiah, this was not the only criterion when making a decision as to when the new year (and the renewed feast cycle) should begin. The Sanhedrin, who was in charge of decisions of this nature, looked at other factors, too, as we have already mentioned, a few comments ago in this current discussion. They wanted to come to some degree of certainty that all the feasts would fall in their proper season, and would therefore add a thirteenth month every now and then, based on these factors. With the lunar year of twelve months being approximately 11 days shorter than a solar year of twelve months, a thirteenth month needs to be added or intercalated every two or three years, for these two different cycles to remain aligned.

    As we have explained before, we have a situation this year where the new moon that will introduce the next month after the twelfth month this year, is expected to be seen on 5 or 6 March 2011, which is (just a little bit) more than half a month before the equinox in Israel, which is already a fairly good indication that a thirteenth month will have to be added to the present year. Even in the unlikely event of barley being declared “ready” before the 5th of March, starting the new year that early, will result in Pesach taking place before the equinox and the agricultural season running way too “early” in comparison with the feast cycle. There was already some concern last year, brought to our attention by people living in Israel, when the new year started almost two weeks later than what would be the case if we do not add a thirteenth month this year.

    My own feeling, in conclusion, is that a thirteenth month will most probably have to be introduced this year, resulting in 6 or 7 March being the first day of the 13th month and 5 April being the first day of the first month of the new year.

  21. Robert Wentzel says:

    Dankie John

    Ek sien dat die kalender op Elim saam met die “Jewish” Holy days, voor in enige dagboek val so lyk my vir eens stem ons saam met die ortodokses hierdie jaar.

    Hoop Yahshua keer gou terug sodat ons vir eens en altyd kan saamstem[beide groepe]

    Shabat Shalom

    Rob

  22. John says:

    :) Robert, ek kan nie help om so effens lag te kry nie. Ons het in die verlede ons verskille gehad, maar hier stem ons nou sowaar saam oor iets, al is dit so ietwat “toevallig”, want ek volg nie noodwendig die Joodse kalender nie, omdat hulle nie noodwendig die Skrif se voorskrifte volg nie!

  23. I sent some info to John about some Calendars that he will upload, in order that we can all see and comment on. It may be viewed here.

  24. Jacques says:

    B”H

    Thanks John or inviting me to take part in the discussions about the Calendar.

    Firstly, I believe that a discussion like this is good and perfectly valid. We should question everything and thrash it out so to speak.

    However, here is where I respectfully differ. When it leads to “everyone doing his own thing and doing what is right in his own eyes”, there is a problem.(Devarim 12:8 “Do not do as we are doing here today – each one doing whatever is right in his own eyes) YHWH has rules for those of His household. That is for both Jews and for Non-Jews as YHWH is not an Elohim of chaos but of order. Here is the thing – Matters like the Calendar which should actually bring us into oneness and makes us a unique and peculiar people who serve the Elohim of Israel, become matters of strife and division. What a paradox. His will for us is certainly not that we each celebrate His Appointed Times on different times.

    Yehudah was the tribe that has been given the jurisdiction and are the appointed custodians over the Torah. We can argue that Shiloh has come and that the scepter is no longer with them. However YHWH says that Yehudah is His Lawgiver and even Y’shua said we are to obey and do what the Scribes and the Pharisees say. With ONE BIG EXEPTION though; Y’shua is Messiah and we cannot accept the ruling of the Scribes and the Pharisees that he is not. This obviously does not mean that is the case in every point, including the matter of the Calendar. For there is a commandment in the Torah that goes as follow:

    • Devarim 17:8 “When any matter arises which is too hard for you to judge, between blood and blood, between plea and plea, or between stroke and stroke – matters of strife within your gates – then you shall rise and go up to the place which YHWH your Elohim chooses,
    • Devarim 17:9 and shall come to the priests, the L?wites, and to the judge who is in those days, and shall inquire. And they shall declare to you the word of right-ruling,
    • Devarim 17:10 and you shall do according to the word which they declare to you from that place which YHWH chooses. And you shall guard to do according to all that they instruct you.
    • Devarim 17:11 “Do according to the Torah in which they teach you, according to the right-ruling which they say to you. You do not turn to the right or to the left from the word which they declare to you.
    • Devarim 17:12 “And the man who acts arrogantly, so as not to listen to the priest who stands to serve there before YHWH your Elohim, or to the judge, that man shall die. So you shall purge the evil from Yisra’?l.
    • Devarim 17:13 “And let all the people hear and fear, and no longer do arrogantly.

    Shaul and Barnabas applied this commandment when there was strife as is written in Acts 15. The judges of that day made a ruling which one would not find anywhere in the Torah. Yet it was a ruling by the judges and it is to be obeyed as if it is a commandment from YHWH.

    The Calendar is an issue for all Israel corporately and not for individuals. Should we choose to determine our “own” Calendar I am afraid to say that we are out of line and we bring division and strife in the Body of Messiah and are “doing arrogantly”. As Messiah’s own words were that we are to do what they (the
    Scribes and the Pharisees) say. (Mat 23:1-2) And…

    • Devarim 18:18 ‘I shall raise up for them a Prophet like you out of the midst of their brothers. And I shall put My Words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him.
    • Devarim 18:19 ‘And it shall be, the man who does not listen to My Words which He speaks in My Name, I require it of him.

    I believe that the Calendar issue and the errors regarding it will be addressed in the near future and that the restoration thereof would be soon in our days. However in the mean time, to actually “break away” from a current and still active ruling by judges appointed by YHWH in the earlier days, is the same as disobeying a commandment that comes straight from YHWH Himself. The judges who were in those days were appointed by YHWH and going against their ruling is the same as going against YHWH. As much as we might hate it, note what it says in Devarim 17:12.

    At the moment the Body is divided and duped in chaos, and each one is doing what is right in his own eyes. On top of that and to make it worse we have strife and contention in the household which inevitably leads to baseless hatred.

    The Torah is a Jewish Book and we know that the Messiah, the culture, the Mitzvot, the interpretation thereof, the understanding and the background are Jewish and we can’t change that. If we dare to do so, we are replacing it with our Western mindset and it is simply called, “replacement theology”.

    To quote Shaul’s words to us as Non-Jews:

    • Rom 11:13 For I speak to you, the gentiles, inasmuch as I am an emissary to the gentiles, I esteem my service,
    • Rom 11:14 if somehow I might provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them.
    • Rom 11:15 For if their casting away is the restoration to favour of the world, what is their acceptance but life from the dead?
    • Rom 11:16 Now if the first-fruit is set-apart, the lump is also. And if the root is set-apart, so are the branches.
    • Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, have been grafted in among them, and came to share the root and fatness of the olive tree,
    • Rom 11:18 do not boast against the branches. And if you boast, remember: you do not bear the root, but the root bears you!
    • Rom 11:19 You shall say then, “The branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.”
    • Rom 11:20 Good! By unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by belief. Do not be arrogant, but fear.
    • Rom 11:21 For if Elohim did not spare the natural branches, He might not spare you either.
    • Rom 11:22 See then the kindness and sharpness of Elohim: on those who fell sharpness, but toward you kindness, if you continue in His kindness, otherwise you also shall be cut off.
    • Rom 11:23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, shall be grafted in, for Elohim is able to graft them in again.
    • Rom 11:24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree, how much more shall these who are the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

    It is quite evident that whichever calendar one would follow that there would always be unresolved issues that would make whichever one you choose to follow, doubtful. One can only claim “that this one which we follow appears to be the closest to the truth”. In the process we miss the point. Whether the Sanhedrin are 100% correct or not, YHWH says we are not to “turn to the right or to the left from the word which they declare to you.” ….and Y’shua said “Therefore, whatever they say to you to guard, guard and do.

    Shalom Shalom

    Jacques

  25. John says:

    Jacques, you make the valid point that we cannot follow the Yehudim in their rejection of Messiah. You seem to say that in (most) other aspects we should follow them and their jurisdiction as “the appointed custodians over the Torah”. My problem with this viewpoint is that neither Y’shua, nor the early apostles felt themselves bound by practices and customs and teachings of the Yehudim that were clearly against the letter and/or the spirit of Torah. A few examples from Scriptures may suffice to prove the point.

    Mat 12:1-8 At that time Y’shua went through the grain fields on the Sabbath. And His taught ones were hungry, and began to pluck heads of grain, to eat. And when the Pharisees saw it, they said to Him, “Look, Your taught ones are doing what is not right to do on the Sabbath!” But He said to them, “Have you not read what Dawid did when he was hungry … Or did you not read in the Torah that on the Sabbath the priests in the Set-apart Place profane the Sabbath, and are blameless? But I say to you that in this place there is One greater than the Set-apart Place. And if you had known what this means, ‘I desire compassion and not offering,’ you would not have condemned the blameless. For the Son of Adam is Master of the Sabbath.”

    Mar 7:3-8 For the Pharisees, and all the Yehudim, do not eat unless they wash their hands thoroughly, holding fast the tradition of the elders … Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him, “Why do Your taught ones not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands?” And He answering, said to them, “Well did Yeshayahu prophesy concerning you hypocrites, as it has been written, ‘This people respect Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. And in vain do they worship Me, teaching as teachings the commands of men.’ Forsaking the command of Elohim, you hold fast the tradition of men.”

    Luk 13:10-15 And He was teaching in one of the congregations on the Sabbath, and see, there was a woman having a weakening spirit for eighteen years … . And Y’shua, seeing her, called her near and said to her, “Woman, you are loosened from your weakness.” And He laid His hands on her … But the ruler of the congregation … said to the crowd, “There are six days on which men should work, so come and be healed on them, and not on the Sabbath day.” Then the Master answered … “Hypocrite! Does not each one of you on the Sabbath loosen his ox or his donkey from the stall, and lead it away to water it? And this one, being a daughter of Avraham, whom Satan has bound, look, for eighteen years, should she not be loosened from this bond on the Sabbath?”

    Act 4:18-20 And they called them and commanded them not to speak at all nor to teach in the Name of Y’shua. But Kepha and Yahuchanan answering them, said, “Whether it is right in the sight of Elohim to listen to you more than to Elohim, you judge. For it is impossible for us not to speak of what we saw and heard.”

    Act 10:28 And he said to them, “You know that a Yehudite man is not allowed to associate with, or go to one of another race. But Elohim has shown me that I should not call any man common or unclean.”

    You also refer to Acts 15 as an example of the apostles making use of a certain principle of Torah to come to a decision with regards to a previously unresolved issue. This may be true, but Acts 15 is also a perfect example of the apostles coming to a very important decision concerning a matter that falls within the confines of Torah, without going to the Sanhedrin or following the traditions of the Yehudim but, instead, resolving it among themselves.

    I am afraid, not accepting Y’shua as Messiah, is by far not the only aspect in which the modern-day Yehudah is not following Scriptures. I am just as frustrated with the disunity among followers of the Messiah as you are. But aligning ourselves with the Yehudim in matters where they are not aligned with Scriptures, will, in my opinion, only make things worse. And seeing that there is no place today that can truly be called “the place which YHWH your Elohim chooses” (in the same sense as when there was still a tabernacle or a temple), I feel our best (if not only) option, as followers of the Messiah, is to keep the Shabbat and the feasts as closely as possible to the way He kept them.

  26. Jacques says:

    Thanks John.

    I have some questions if I may.

    1. Would you say that Y’shua rejected the oral tradition in it’s entirety and did He not keep them at all?
    2. Would you say that He followed His own Calendar and not the one instituted by the Sanhedrin which was in use at that time?
    3. Did Shaul keep the traditions?
    4. What did Y’shua mean in Mat 23:1-2?

  27. John says:

    Jacques, I’ll answer your questions briefly, as well as I can, but I’ll restrict myself in the hope that others will also take part in the discussion, as I would prefer this not to become an exclusive two-way conversation. My answers, then, to your four questions:

    1. I cannot say for sure, but I do know that He rejected at least some of it, as may also be seen in Matt 5:21-48.
    2. Of course He followed the calendar which was in use at that time – a time and situation that was considerably different from our situation today.
    3. I suspect that Shaul, being a follower of Y’shua, would have had a similar attitude towards the oral tradition.
    4. These verses (including verse 3) are currently widely debated in Messianic circles and as you would probably know, there are varying studies and views in this regard. To try to answer your question in a sentence or two would therefore perhaps leave us all with more questions than answers. All I would like to say at this point is that many of the people who like to quote Matt 23:1-3 as a “proof text” that Y’shua sided with the Pharisees and their doctrines, tend to forget that the whole mood and context of Matt 23 is one of sharp criticism towards the Pharisees, their teachings and their practices. One should not be too quick to read something into the first three verses of this chapter, that stands in stark contrast to what is being said in the remaining 36 verses.

  28. Johann de Kock says:

    I would like to answer Jacques’ questions as well:

    1. Yashua rejected their oral traditions as He called them a brood of vipers and he never called ANYONE else that at all – these are STRONG WORDS, but they DESERVED it. In Mrk 7:6-9 He put it EXACTLY into perspective. And it applies still to this day – we must watch out that WE do not become PART of THAT religious spirit.

    2. I presume (I do not know yet) He followed the calendar of the time, but we have to study more on this one to be sure – in due time, we shall all know.

    3. Shaul started out, keeping all the traditions of the Pharisees, as he was one of them, but when he was confronted with Yashua Himself, he found THE TRUTH and he started being led by the Ruwach Qaduwsha and followed Him and he exhorted us to follow him, as he followed Yashua. How can we keep on keeping the traditions of the scribes and Pharisees, for THEY are the ones who impaled our Master? NO, we must follow Shaul and he was heavily persecuted for the TRUTH and that has not and WILL NOT change. It is ALWAYS A REMNANT within the remnant.
    WHO has ALWAYS persecuted the newest move of the Ruwach Qaduwsha through the ages? The same religious spirit in the world today.

    4. Mt 23:2 “Although the scribes and the Pharisees sit now in ‘MoshAH’s seat,
    :3 all things whatever he (MoshAH) tells you to do from the Word of YAH, observe and do it, but do not do the added works of any man for they proclaim additions (takenot) to the Original Scripture with their traditions but you must not do these.
    :4 For they bind heavy non-Covenant Word laws that are burdensome to bear and lay them on men’s shoulders, yet they themselves will not lift their finger to actually help them know His Original Word.”
    Quoted from The Word of YAH. It is so clear.

  29. John says:

    I notice that the attachment that Johann had asked me to upload, a few comments ago, is entitled “26 Common Lunar Calendars” and comes from OSE1 (page 489) in which the claim is made that the “Scriptural” and “original” and “100% accurate” calendar is a solar calendar already established by the Enoch of Bereshit (Genesis) 5 or, more correctly Chanoch (renamed “ChanUWk” by the OSE1 translators) some 5500 years ago. As with the claims and the translation in the rest of OSE1 (see our discussion here), this claim will also have to be tested and measured up against the facts that are available to us today. Hopefully those who have undertaken some degree of study in this regard will take part in the discussion. I would like to make a few introductory remarks.

    It seems that by listing 26 different “lunar” calendars the compilers of OSE1 are trying to make the point that there is much more difference of opinion among those who reckon that the Scriptural calendar is lunar, than among those who reckon that it is solar. I would not ascribe too much weight to an argument like that. There is also a considerable number of so-called “solar” calendars known to mankind and very few of these are exactly the same.

    Much emphasis is placed in OSE1 on the claim that the “ChanUWk” calendar is more accurate that any other calendar known today. The deciding factor, I would say however, is not whether a proposed calendar is accurate, not even whether it is the original calendar, or not (Yahweh may have allowed the calendar to be changed, for reasons that are unknown to us), but whether it is the same calendar that was in use during the lifetime of the Messiah. If He did not challenge the validity of the calendar of his day, there is no reason for us to do so today.

    The claim that the “ChanUWk” calendar is a 5500 year old calendar is, to my knowledge, not backed up by scientific proof, as has already been pointed out in one comment of the parallel discussion, “The quest for the Original Scriptures”. This calendar is mentioned in the Books of Enoch and Jubilees, both writings of which the origin does not go beyond the second century before Messiah. Despite the fact that there is a broad consensus among scholars that these writings were written later (that is: more recently) than 200 BCE, OSE1 refer to them as “the discarded 5500 year old Books of ChanUWk (and) Yubilees” (page 17) and more than 12 times repeat the claim that the “ChanUWk” calendar is 5500 years old, without any proper proof for a claim of this nature.

    I am not trying to rule out the possibility that a calendar, similar to the Enoch calendar, may have been in use in ancient times (even before the Babylonian exile), but I am sure that many people who would like to see this possibility being investigated in a proper and scholarly way, will not appreciate the assertive approach and unsubstantiated claims of OSE1.

  30. Pieter says:

    @Johann dK – upload of 18/2:
    What is the source of this document?
    What is the context and position the author is trying to convey? We understand that the Almighty’s calendar is essentially solar/ lunar based (Ber/Gen 1:14-19; Teh 81:3, 104:19 and many more practical examples throughout the Tanakh). Because the solar and lunar cycles differ, it would necessitate some adjustment mechanism from time to time. To some extent, the crux of this debate is the search for understanding of the adjustment mechanism instituted by the Almighty (may His Name be blessed).
    Shalom

  31. Pieter says:

    John, thank you for anticipating/ answering my question – I did not notice your reply when posting. I concur with you assessment of this “source”.
    Shalom

  32. Jacques says:

    Thanks John

    Herewith my response:

    1) Whilst we are not certain about whether Y’shua followed or rejected the oral tradition it would be unfair to say that He did should the only real proof we have is that Y’shua was very hard on the Pharisees. He certainly did not hold back in rebuking them at all. Question is why was He then so hard on them? The answer I think is quite simple. They sit on the seat of Moses, which means that they are the teachers, and being in that position put them in a place of very high accountability. Teachers are more harshly judged that those being taught is the idea. (James 3:1)

    Y’shua never challenged the traditions per se or told them outright that they should quit the traditions, but rather He challenged the attitude of the leaders of that time. The issue was the hypocrisy, the hunger for power and selfishness. These are anti-Torah and signs of uncircumcised hearts. The transgression was the application of the traditions with hardened hearts, placing the traditions before the commandments of YHWH, making it hard for believers to follow. That was never the intention of the traditions. It was rather to help one to fulfill the commandments.

    It is like someone who does the Sabbath Service, with the challah, the candles and the wine on Erev Shabbat (Friday night) and the next morning he goes to work, claiming that he keeps the Sabbath. He does what the tradition requires, but then profanes the Sabbath by going to work the next morning.

    Y’shua was rebuking them for their going astray, serving YHWH with their lips but their hearts are far away. Let us be watchful not to fall into the same trap for we might think that His rebuke was only for the Pharisees.( 1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.)

    There were devout Pharisees who served YHWH with a circumcised heart and
    who believed that Y’shua was the Messiah. How can we even think that Y’shua
    included all the Pharisees when He rebuked them. Shaul did not say that since He
    believed Y’shua was the Messiah, he is no longer a Pharisee. On the contrary, he
    says

    • Php 3:3 For we are the circumcision, who are serving Elohim in the Spirit, and boasting in Messiah ?????, and do not trust in the flesh,
    • Php 3:4 though I too might have trust in the flesh. If anyone else thinks to trust in the flesh, I more –
    • Php 3:5 circumcised the eighth day, of the race of Yisra’?l, of the tribe of Binyamin, a Heb?rew of Heb?rews, according to Torah a Pharisee,
    • Php 3:6 according to ardour, persecuting the assembly; according to righteousness that is in the law, having become blameless.

    2) If Y’shua followed the Calendar which was instituted and controlled by the Sanhedrin at that time, would that not lead us to follow His example?

    3) I will try and demonstrate that Shaul indeed followed the traditions even after his meeting with Y’shua on his way to Damascus.

    Firstly Shaul tells us in Romans 3:1-2 that “the advantage of a Jew” is much in every way especially because they preserved the Oracles of YHWH. I know that in the Scriptures they used “Word” and not “Oracles”. The Strong’s Concordance refers to the word used as “Oracles”. If it were to be the Written Torah that was referred to it would have mentioned it as that.

    Secondly, when Shaul were on trail he admitted that he had not sinned against the practices of the fathers:

    Act 25:8 while Sha’ul said in his own defence, “Neither against the Torah of the Yehud?im, nor against the Set-apart Place, nor against Caesar did I commit any sin.”

    Act 28:17 And it came to be after three days that Sha’ul called the leaders of the Yehud?im together. And when they had come together, he said to them, “Men, brothers, though I have done none at all against our people or the practices of our fathers, I was delivered as a prisoner from Yerushalayim into the hands of the Romans,

    Thirdly Shaul actually commends and encourages followers of Messiah for keeping the traditions:

    2Th 2:15 So, then, brothers, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or by our letter.

    2Th 3:6 But we command you, brothers, in the Name of our Master ????? Messiah, that you withdraw from every brother who walks disorderly and not according to the tradition which you received from us.

    And lastly he says that we should imitate him as he imitates Messiah and in the same breath commends believers who follow the traditions as he taught them. If Shaul says he was imitating Messiah and was himself keeping the traditions then certainly the Messiah also kept them:

    1Co 11:1 Become imitators of me, as I also am of Messiah.
    1Co 11:2 And I praise you, brothers, that you remember me in every way and keep the traditions (G3862) as I delivered them to you.

    G3862 -par-ad’-os-is – From G3860; transmission, that is, (concretely) a precept; specifically the Jewish traditionary law: – ordinance, tradition

    4) Mat 23:1-2 is indeed quite debated in Messianic circles. Nehemiah Gordon, a Karaite who does not accept Y’shua as the Messiah and Michael Rood a Messianic Karaite will of course differ with the statement as they are Karaites and are absolutely set against Pharisaic Judaism and suggests we change our Bibles to their version. Y’shua actually mentions Pharisees and not the Sadducees which is the group from which the Karaites originally stem.

    They use a translation called the Matthew Shem Tov to proof the KJV’s wording to be. Tim Hegg, a Messianic believer refutes their arguments and convincingly proves that the oral tradition more than often features in the Brit Chadasha and that without it many phrases and verses would not be properly understood.

    Of course we can see that Y’shua warns us about the traps. That warning certainly does not nullify what He said verse 2 and 3. First He warns us of their hypocrisy, then about the heavy burdens they lay upon men, then about their boastfulness to be seen with long tzitzit and teffilin, then about selfishness, then about the self gratification of titles, for their treatment of widows, for their blindness, then for neglecting the weightier matters of the Torah, their pettiness, their pious outward appearance etc. Most of these rebukes we also find in the Prophets. Like I said before; certainly we should also be watchful so we don’t succumb to these.

    I am not saying that we should follow every one who claims to be a Rabbi; however should we practice our faith outside ancient Biblical Pharisaic Judaism we are moving into the territory of replacement theology. Especially on matters like the Calendar which is for the whole nation of Yisrael (Jews and non-Jews who are grafted in through Messiah), should be left in the hands of the authorities ordained by YHWH. Could they be wrong? Of course they could be. However taking it in our own hands is undermining the authorities which YHWH appointed for us.

    Psa 60:7 Gilead is mine, and Manasseh is mine; Ephraim also is the strength of mine head; Judah is my lawgiver;

    Zec 8:23 Thus saith YHWH of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that Elohim is with you

  33. Robert Wentzel says:

    John
    February 20, 2011 at 1:40 pm ..>”…Jacques, you make the valid point that we cannot follow the Yehudim in their rejection of Messiah…”

    John I differ from you here as well and would like to ask:.>

    Do they in fact reject the Messiah ? Let have a look..>

    Joh 10:30 …I and the Father…> are one.

    Joh 14:20 …I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.

    Joh 17:11 …so that they may be one, …>just as we are.

    Joh 17:22 …so that they may be one, …>just as we are one.

    Deu 6:4 Hoor, Yiesraél, Yahweh is ons Elohiem; Yahweh…>is een.

    So if the Orthodox Jews pray to Yahweh at the wall in Jerusalem..>Do they not pray to the/our Messiah indirectly?

    Is it not only we with our xtian/churchian mindset that think that they reject the Messiah.

    Remember that they ONLY follow the Torah and the Torah INSTRUCTS them NOT to follow no one other than Yahweh:

    Deu 5:7 “‘You are to have no other gods before me.

    Deu 6:14 You are NOT to follow other gods, chosen from the gods of the peoples around you.

    Deu 7:3 Don’t intermarry with them -don’t give your daughter to his son, and don’t take his daughter for your son.
    Deu 7:4 For he will turn your children away FROM FOLLOWING ME in order to serve other gods.

    Deu 13:1 “If a prophet or someone who gets messages while dreaming arises among you and he gives you a sign or wonder,
    Deu 13:2 and the sign or wonder comes about as he predicted when he said, ‘Let’s follow other gods, WHICH YOU HAVE NOT KNOWN; and let us serve them,’
    Deu 13:3 you are NOT to listen to what that prophet or dreamer says. For ADONAI your God is testing you, in order to find out whether you really do love ADONAI your God with all your heart and being.
    Deu 13:4 You are to follow ADONAI your God, fear him, obey his mitzvot, listen to what he says, serve him and cling to him;
    Deu 13:5 and that prophet or dreamer is to be put to death; because he urged rebellion against ADONAI your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you from a life of slavery; in order to seduce you away from the path ADONAI your God ordered you to follow. This is how you are to rid your community of this wickedness.
    Deu 13:6 “If your brother the son of your mother, or your son, or your daughter, or your wife whom you love, or your friend who means as much to you as yourself, secretly tries to entice you to go and serve other gods, which you haven’t known, neither you nor your ancestors –
    Deu 13:7 gods of the peoples surrounding you, whether near or far away from you, anywhere in the world –
    Deu 13:8 you are NOT to consent, and you are NOT to listen to him…

    Is dit nie JUIS waarom die Messias die volgende “snaakse” statement maak in..>

    Mat 15:24 He said, “I was sent ONLY to the lost sheep of the house of Isra’el.”

    En ons weet mos by nou al dat “The house of Judah” die “verdomde joodjies” of “ADDERS” is wat die Messias gekruisig het ?

    As ons maar net vergifnisgesindheid kon he^ teenoor ons ouer broer daar in Jerusalem soos wat ons vergifnis verwag van ons Messias ?

    Shalom

  34. John says:

    Jacques, just a request that you try to keep your comments as brief as possible. I’ll try to do the same – not always that easy :). I follow what you are trying to say, but when looking at the Scriptural references that you are basing your argument upon, I come to a different conclusion. Let us leave aside for a moment the proper way to understand Matt 23. As a matter of fact, I agree with most of what you have written concerning the reasons why Y’shua took such a harsh stand against the Pharisees in this chapter. I also agree that there must have been good and upright Pharisees and that Shaul did not reject his own Pharisaic roots. But it still doesn’t bring us closer to an answer to the question: Did Y’shua accept the teachings and practices of the Pharisees (or, for that matter, of any other representative of the Jewish religious system) when those teachings and practices were not in accordance with the written Torah? I tend to think that He didn’t – even when looking at the verses that you have put forward. Let us briefly look at (some of) these:

    The word in Romans 3 (“logion”) that is sometimes translated “oracles” simply means “words that have been spoken (orally)” and most definitely does not exclude words that were spoken by mouth at a certain stage, only to be written down at a later stage. There is no reason to assume that in Romans 3 Shaul is referring to the oral tradition, in particular. Why would he single out the possession of the oral tradition as the one area in which the Jew has an advantage, when the rest of the chapter shows repeatedly how they abused this “advantage” by transgressing the written Torah that Yahweh had given them? There are a number of other examples in the New Covenant Scriptures where it is quite clear that this same word “logion” does not have the rather technical meaning of “oral tradition”, like Heb 5:12 and 1 Pet 4:11.

    You refer to the fact that Shaul sometimes encouraged believers to keep or follow certain values or customs. The Greek word being used is “paradosis” and it means quite literally “something handed over or passed on by others”. One of the proposed meanings for this word from Strongs is “Jewish traditionary law” but, once again, this is not the only possible meaning of this word, as may clearly be seen in a verse like Col 2:8 “See to it that no one makes a prey of you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition (“paradosis”) of men, according to the elementary matters of the world, and not according to Messiah.” There is no compelling reason to insist that this word refers to the “Jewish oral tradition” when used in the verses that you have quoted.

    Zec 8:23 that you have quoted is a confirmation of the prophetic significance of what is happening today on a world-wide scale, where people of “all languages of the nations” are recognising that Yahweh has been with the house of Yehudah (and the house of Yisrael) all these centuries and that his plan of salvation for the nations and his blessings upon them (the nations), is very closely linked to all the things that Yahweh had given and promised to Yisrael. Does that, however, mean that they (the nations) should keep all the traditions and ordinances and days that Yehudah and Yisrael are keeping (or have kept in the past) – including not only the fast of the seventh month, but also the fast of the fourth month and the fifth month and the tenth month, because Yehudah is commanded to keep these only four verses earlier, in Zec 8:19? I honestly don’t think so. Yes, we have heard that Elohim is with them. But we have also heard of times when Elohim was not with them. Why? Because those were times when they chose not to obey his commands and not to follow his instructions. Why would we follow after them in such times – and become just like them, as ones who are with a “spirit of deep sleep, eyes not to see and ears not to hear” (Rom 11:8)?

  35. Johann de Kock says:

    John,
    Can I have your insight/comment on Gen 49:10, please (… until Shiloh comes… )?
    Thank you.

  36. Robert says:

    Wie is dus in “beheer” totdat Shilo kom ?

    Nogal ‘n goeie vraag maar as jy dit aan ‘n “anders gesinde” audiance vra gaan jy nie jou antwoord kry waarna jy soek nie maar gaan hulle hul sienswyse aan jou gee, dit is maar een ding wat ek in my sewejaar van selfstudie geleer het.

    Vir diegene wat belangstel om na “die anderkant” se sienwyse te luister, is hier by die volgende skakel/link is ‘n hele verduideliking oor die idee van “until Shilo comes” ..> Judah is the Mechoqeq :-

    http://www.archive.org/details/JudahIsTheMechoqeq :

    http://www.archive.org/download/JudahIsTheMechoqeq/JudahIsTheMechoqeq_64kb.mp3 [16,1 Mb]

    Laai die Mp3 module af deur op die mp3 modulehierbo te regskliek en “download” te selekteer. Die module is 16.3 Mb groot.

    Hierdie persoon/aanbieder het “geconvert” na Judaism en woon nou/tans in Israel, hy was dus ‘n christen wat “oorgeloop” het na die Ortodokse Jode.

    So, net ‘n waarskuwing, dat sy sienswyse van die Ortodokse Jode bietjie anders is as die van “Messianic believers” maar nogal ‘n indiepte studie.

    Indien jy van ‘n meer “Ortodokse” sienswyse hou, gaan loer by die argief in by hierdie skakel/link.[URL not working any longer – JW]

    Shalom
    Robert

  37. John says:

    Robert, in answer to you comment on February 23 (sorry I could not find the time to answer earlier). I shall not answer in full, for we have already had a lengthy discussion on this very matter last year, in which your participation ended with your words “… hiermee sluit ek dan geheel en al van my kant af, met hierdie bespreking …”.

    My short answer to your question “So if the Orthodox Jews pray to Yahweh at the wall in Jerusalem … Do they not pray to the/our Messiah indirectly?” is: No, they don’t.

    The problem with “our Christian mindset” is that we assume that for the Jews or Yehudim to accept Y’shua as Messiah, they have to accept Him as Yahweh or as someone on the same level as Yahweh. That is not, and never was, the meaning of “Messiah”. Scriptures leave us with no doubt, whatsoever: The majority of the Yehudim do not accept Y’shua of Natzaret as the Messiah. The Yehudim themselves agree with us on this point, even in their writings: They simply do not see Y’shua of Natzaret as the promised Messiah. Period. There is no Scriptural or evidential reason (only doctrinal reasons) for us to insist that it only “seems” that the Yehudim are rejecting the Messiah, while in reality they are not “really” rejecting Him. Sorry, but I find absolutely nothing in Scriptures to support such a view.

    And for the fact that they do not believe in Y’shua as the promised Messiah, we are not required to “forgive” them – no, we are required to pray and to work towards their re-entry into “their own olive tree” (Rom 11:24). And in order to succeed in these efforts we shall have to rid ourselves of our unscriptural views of the Messiah. How can we present to the Yehudim a portrayal of Y’shua of Natzaret that is so incompatible with the Torah (and the rest of the Tanach) that it effectively forces them to choose between Torah and Messiah? In my view, this paradigm shift in our presentation of the Messiah to the Yehudim, holds the key towards the fulfilment of the prophesies concerning their turning back to Yahweh.

  38. Robert says:

    John, you write..> “..holds the key towards the fulfilment of the prophesies concerning their turning back to Yahweh..”

    So, John please enlighten me as to whom the Jews pray to at their wall ?

    And does not our Messiah sit right next to the Father[YHVH] ? I suppose YHVH and Yahshua do not communicate about their children ?

    Does not scripture tell us ..>
    Luk 15:11 Again Yeshua said, “A man had two sons.
    Luk 15:25 Now his older son was in the field.
    Luk 15:29 “And answering, he said to his father, ‘See, these many years I have been serving you, and I have NEVER transgressed a command of yours, but to me you have never given a young goat, so I could rejoice with my friends.
    Luk 15:31 “Then he said to him, ‘Son, you are ALWAYS with me, and all I have is yours.

    So John, what was the elder brother[house of Judah] doing all the years whilst we[house of Israel] were whoring amongst the Nations ?

    Shalom

  39. Jacques says:

    John, I am 100% in agreement with you on this issue. Most Messianics either believe that Y’shua is YHWH or in the trinity-doctrine, golden calves of which are held on to for dear life.

    Like you, I also believe that these doctrines are the stumbling blocks that hold back the Yahudim to realise that Y’shua is the promised Messiah.

  40. Robert Wentzel says:

    Rom 9:33 Soos geskrywe is: Kyk, Ek lê in Sion ‘n steen van aanstoot en ‘n rots van struikeling; en elkeen wat in Hom glo, sal nie beskaam word nie.

    1Pe 2:7 Vir julle dan wat glo, is Hy kosbaar; maar vir die ongelowiges geld die woord: Die steen wat die bouers verwerp het, dit het ‘n hoeksteen geword; en: ‘n Steen des aanstoots en ‘n rots van struikeling—

    1Co 10:32 Wees GEEN oorsaak van struikeling vir JODE of Grieke of vir die gemeente van God nie;

    Daar vind ons dit dan SKRIFTUURLIK GESKRYWE :-> Wees GEEN oorsaak van struikeling met jou “stumbling-block”[jesus] vir JODE NIE.

    Shalom

  41. Robert Wentzel says:

    John you say, February 24, 2011 at 8:45 am , to Jacques:>

    “..that you have quoted is a confirmation of the prophetic significance of what is happening today on a world-wide scale, where people of “all languages of the nations” are recognising that Yahweh has been with the house of Yehudah (and the house of Yisrael) all these centuries..”

    Ek stem nie met jou saam dat Yahweh al die “centuries” saam met(the house of Yisrael)was nie en hier is my sienswyse:

    1Ki 12:16 Toe die hele Yiesraél sien dat die koning nie na hulle luister nie, het die volk die koning geantwoord en gesê: Watter aandeel het ons aan Dawied? en daar is geen erfdeel aan die seun van Yieshai nie! Na julle tente toe, Yiesraél! Kyk nou na jou eie huis, Dawied! Daarna het Yiesraél na sy tente gegaan.
    ………….
    1Ki 14:15 En Yahweh sal Yiesraél slaan, soos ‘n riet in die water heen en weer beweeg, en sal Yiesraél uitruk uit hierdie goeie land wat Hy aan hulle vaders gegee het, en hulle anderkant die Perat verstrooi, omdat hulle hul afgesonderde boomstamme gemaak en Yahweh geterg het.
    ………….
    Hos 1:2 Die begin van wat Yahweh met Hoshea gepraat het; Yahweh het aan Hoshea gesê: Gaan heen, neem vir jou ‘n hoervrou en hoerkinders; want die land het oorvloediglik owerspel bedryf deur van Yahweh afvallig te word.
    …………
    Hos 1:4 En Yahweh het vir hom gesê: Noem hom Yiezreél, want nog ‘n klein tydjie, dan sal Ek die bloedskuld van Yiezreél aan die huis van Yahhu besoek en ‘n einde maak aan die koninkryk van die huis van Yiesraél.
    …………
    Hos 1:6 Toe het sy weer swanger geword en ‘n dogter verwek; en Hy het vir hom gesê: Noem haar Lo-Rugama, want Ek sal My verder nie meer oor die huis van Yiesraél ontferm deur hulle vergifnis te skenk nie.
    ……………
    Hos 1:7 Maar oor [die huis van Yehudah] sal Ek My ontferm en hulle verlos deur Yahweh HULLE Elohiem, en Ek sal hulle nie deur boog of swaard of oorlog, deur perde of ruiters verlos nie…[So hier sien ons dat YHVH die “savior” is van die huis van YEHUDAH] en nie Yahshua nie !
    …………
    Hos 1:9 En Hy het gesê: Noem hom Lo-Ammi, want julle is nie my volk nie, en Ek sal nie julle s’n wees nie…[So hier se^ YHVH uitdruklik dat Hy NIE die “savior” van die huis van Yiesraél is/sal wees nie !]
    ……….

    Sien my blog vir ‘n volledige verduideliking :> http://kingdomofyeshua.blogspot.com/

    Shalom

  42. Johann de Kock says:

    Gen 49:10 “… until Shiloh comes …” The more I look and meditate on this – was it referring to His first coming or His second coming?

    The first time, He came as the Lamb that had to be slain and offered up for us and the second time is when He comes as the King of kings to reign.

  43. Robert Wentzel says:

    Johann your question is specifically discussed in this mp3 module.

    Shalom

  44. John says:

    Johann, your question about Shiloh is not entirely within the range of our present subject, but I’ll try to answer briefly, because indirectly it may help us to come to a better understanding with regards to the feasts.

    The verse in question (Bereshit / Genesis 49:10) is a difficult one – both to translate and to understand properly – and throughout the centuries it has given rise to many different interpretations in commentaries, dictionaries, etc. The main difficulty within this verse is the fact that most translations have “Shiloh” presented as a person, while no such person is known – even the Messiah (who is almost certainly implied in this verse) is nowhere else identified with the name “Shiloh”. There is, however, a place by the name of Shiloh, which, not long after this prophesy was given, began to play an important role in the midst of the people of Yisrael. But it is even more difficult to make sense out of this verse if “Shiloh” is taken as a place and to me it seems clear that we will have to look at yet another possibility.

    It is interesting to look at the translation of the LXX (the Greek translation of some of the most ancient Hebrew manuscripts). Although the LXX is not always regarded as the most reliable translation of the ancient texts, in this case it is definitely worth looking at, and it may provide an important clue as to how this verse was phrased originally. Here is the Brenton English translation of the Greek LXX version of this verse: “A ruler shall not fail from Juda, nor a prince from his loins, until there come the things stored up for him; and he is the expectation of nations.”

    Even if this translation is just “remotely accurate” it brings a whole lot more clarity to this verse. Firstly, we do not have to look for a Messiah by the name of Shiloh (a word of which even the meaning is rather uncertain). Secondly, it confirms what is prophesied elsewhere, namely that a “ruler” or a “prince” (by implication, a “messiah”) will come out of the tribe of Yehudah (the words “from his loins” refer to the genitals and implies that this ruler will be a direct descendant of Yehudah). Thirdly, it does not say or imply anything about Yehudah that will ALWAYS have the final say in legal or other issues of importance. No, it only confirms what is prophesied elsewhere in Scriptures – “… there is not to cease a man of yours on the throne of Yisrael” (1 Kings 2:4; 1 Kings 8:25; 1 Kings 9:5; 2 Chron 6:16; 2 Chron 7:18; Jer 33:17; Luk 1:32-33).

    We know there were many periods of times when there was not a “ruler” from Yehudah who ruled over Yisrael. Sometimes the ruler was a priest or a Levite (like Mosheh). Sometimes it was someone from Ephrayim (like Yahushua, the successor of Mosheh). Sometimes it was a judge or a king from another tribe of Yisrael. Sometimes it was a prophet who carried more authority than a disobedient king. And sometimes it was even a king or a governor from another nation. But during all those times the prophesy of Bereshit 49:10 never ceased to be valid: “A ruler from Yehudah shall not fail … he is the expectation of the nations”.

  45. Johann de Kock says:

    Thank you, John.

  46. Jacques says:

    I will try to keep it as brief as possible.

    It is not easy to leave Mat 23:1-3 out of the equation. Those were the actual words of Y’shua. He specifically mentioned the Pharisees. Why? Why did He not mention the Sadducees?

    Concerning Romans 3, I have to disagree with you. Should Shaul want us to know that they preserved the written Torah; he would plainly have said so. The uniqueness about Judaism is exactly the fact that they have preserved the traditions by “passing them down from generation to generation” which is in agreement to the description in the Strong’s.

    When the Yahudim transgressed the Torah it certainly does not imply that the traditions were the reason for that. Yes, at the time of Y’shua they held the traditions in higher regard than the Torah. However to make the assumption that the traditions were altogether in opposition of the Torah would be a huge misunderstanding of the heart behind the tradition.

    You mentioned the fasts of the fourth, the fifth and the tenth month as a command for the Jews to keep. That instruction is not at mentioned in the Torah. It stems from the oral tradition.

    I do not suggest that non-Jews are obliged to keep all the traditions of the Jews. As we very well know, no one can compel anyone to do anything other than was concluded in Acts 15 by the council. What I am saying is that when one as a non-Jew desires to do more commandments than the ‘minimum’, that one should not make up his own halacha but follow the halacha which was already established through tradition.

    Could you please shed some light on what the traditions were that Shaul was referring to if you say that it was not the oral tradition? The elementary matters of this world are by no means referring to matters of the Torah which include halacha and oral tradition. It plainly refers to pagan or heathen traditions and practices.

    If Y’shua did not keep the oral tradition the leaders of that time would certainly have been quick to attack Him about that and surely it would have been mentioned in the Brit Chadasha. Here are a few examples where Y’shua kept the Jewish tradition:

    •Y’shua always used to make a Baracha (blessing) before they ate. The Torah commandment is to thank YHWH after the meal. It is a Jewish tradition to make a Baracha before the meal.
    •He never uttered the Name of YHWH but either referred to Him as Father, Heaven or Power, a Jewish tradition.
    •He was called by the title “Rabbi”, a Jewish tradition.
    •He stated at one place “Are the friends of the bridegroom able to fast while the bridegroom is with them? As long as they have the bridegroom with them they are not able to fast.”, a Jewish tradition.
    •Y’shua had disciples, as did the Rabbi’s, which is a Jewish tradition.

  47. Robert Wentzel says:

    Eph 2:11 Therefore, remember your former state: you Gentiles by birth – called the Uncircumcised by those who, merely because of an operation on their flesh, are called the Circumcised[Jews] –

    1Co 7:18(The Scriptures 1998+) Was anyone called while circumcised?[Jews] Let him not become uncircumcised. Was anyone called while uncircumcised? Let him not be circumcised[Jewish]

    This is how I understand the above:

    Let no one who is a Jew , follow after the traditions of the Nations and let no one who is of the Nations, follow after the Jewish traditions.

    Follow written Torah.

    Shabat Shalom to everyone

  48. John says:

    Jacques you have drawn a number of conclusions from what I have said, that are not correct:

    I am not saying that the oral tradition was the reason why the Yehudim had transgressed the written Torah.

    I am not assuming that the oral tradition was altogether in opposition to Torah.

    I am also not trying to indicate that Y’shua did not keep the oral tradition at all. The examples that you have given to prove that Y’shua had kept the Jewish tradition, may all be valid (except for the fact that there are clear indications in the Messianic Scriptures that He did, in fact, utter the Name of Yahweh – contrary to the oral tradition and the general practice of his day).

    The point I am trying to make is that Y’shua was not afraid to challenge the oral tradition in those areas where it was clearly against the letter and the spirit of the written Torah. I am not prepared to ignore this important paradigm shift in the teachings and the example set by the Messiah and return to the same kind of rigid adherence to tradition that, in my view, is one of the reasons why the Yehudim find it so difficult to acknowledge that Y’shua of Natzaret was truly the promised Messiah.

  49. Robert Wentzel says:

    Jacques March 3, 2011 at 5:56 pm :
    “..If Y’shua did not keep the oral tradition the leaders of that time would certainly have been quick to attack Him about that and surely it would have been mentioned in the Brit Chadasha..”
    ………………..

    But it is mentioned in the Brit Chadasha :

    Mar 14:55 The head cohanim AND the whole Sanhedrin tried to find evidence against Yeshua, so that they might have him put to death, but they COULD NOT find ANY.
    Luk 23:4 Pilate said to the head cohanim and the crowds, “I find NO ground for a charge against this man.”
    Luk 23:14 and said to them, “You brought this man before me on a charge of subverting the people. I examined him in your presence and did NOT find the man guilty of the crime you are accusing him of.
    Luk 23:15 And neither did Herod, because he sent him back to us. Clearly, he has NOT done ANYTHING that merits the death penalty.

  50. Jurgen says:

    Shalom John

    In response to your blog on “The Feasts and the Equinox”.

    From what i could tell from the blog we are basically on the same page. Last year i also had a look into the role of the equinox and like you found no scriptural basis for it with regards to Aviv.

    However in my search i found a possibility for the Tishri equinox to possibly be relevant, see the attached doc.

    Blessings
    Jurgen

  51. John says:

    Thanks Jurgen, I have also come across this line of reasoning before. The problem is that there is still a great deal of guessing involved. This article uses the words “most probably” but nevertheless admits that the Hebrew word does not mean “equinox”. Add to this the fact that in Messiah’s time (from what we read in contemporary literature) it was not so much the equinox, but the barley and the physical state of the crops, in general, (and of course the visibility of the new moon) that determined the decision as to when the new year should begin. What we do know for sure is that in Messiah’s time Passover (the 14th day of Aviv) could not occur before the equinox. At this stage I am not really prepared to go beyond these general guidelines.

  52. Jurgen says:

    Thanks for the reply. Could you please provide more info on “What we do know for sure is that in Messiah’s time Passover (the 14th day of Aviv) could not occur before the equinox.”

    Do you have a reference or source for this please ?

    Why would the equinox be important / relevant for Pesach ?

    Thanks, blessings
    Jurgen

  53. John says:

    Sorry for not clarifying what I said about Pesach and equinox. I am referring to the fact that the Talmud, when describing how it was determined when to add a 13th month, declares (among other things): “An extra month is added to the year … If it appears that the vernal equinox will occur ON OR AFTER THE 16TH OF NISAN” (Ramban, Sefer Zemanim, Hilkhot Kiddush, HaHodesh 4:2,3). The Jewish historian Josephus wrote the following: “In the month of Xanthicus, which is by us called Nisan, and is the beginning of our year, on the fourteenth day of the lunar month, WHEN THE SUN IS IN ARIES (for in this month it was that we were delivered from bondage under the Egyptians,) the law ordained that we should every year slay that sacrifice …”. Encyclopedia Judaica states that the main reason for intercalation (adding a 13th month) was “to prevent the lunar Nisan 16 from occurring before the day of the tekufah (vernal equinox) of Nisan”. It is not so much a question of the equinox being important for Pesach, rather the understanding that the entire feast of Pesach (and Unleavened Bread) needed to be in the “correct” season – even if 14 days earlier, when the new year was introduced, there may still have been certain areas of uncertainty.

  54. Jurgen says:

    Thanks again for your response.

    History seems to give us mixed messages in this regard because the Talmud also speaks about intercalating a month with regards to Tishri, see attached.

    As for the Josephus reference he is merely stating when Aviv was and is not describing how they did the intercalation.

    I believe Father has given us 2 mitzvot in regard to regulating a year, He says we are to keep Pesach in the month of Aviv and to celebrate Sukkot in the going out / turn of the year. Here are 2 mitsvot – by only regulating the calendar with Aviv we are only keeping 1 of the mitsvot and ignoring the other – we need to keep both.

    Unfortunately like you said there is a great deal of guessing involved in exactly how to accomplish this and even looking at historical references doesn’t really clarify things.

    However as the previous document showed there is a relationship between the rabbinical method of intercalation and the Tishri equinox, and this together with Talmudic debate (attached), i think, gives it credibility.

  55. Paul says:

    Very interesting thread indeed. What I see, is valid points in all arguments. However, one question remains; does what I (or you) believe change the Truth of YHVH?
    I have long ago come to the conclusion that the answer to this question is a resounding “NO”!
    YHVH set the heavenly bodies in place at the very beginning of time and determined their courses to serve as a celestial time keeping device. He makes it clear that by this very device He reckons time and appoints His times. Why should we humans do any different?

    The present calendar of forecasting new moons are still based on the rabbinic calendar of Hillel adopted for the diaspora instead of on the Biblical inspection of Barley being “aviv” in Yisrael and the physical sightings of the new moon in Yisrael.
    Accepted, for many years it was impossible, and later very difficult, but not impossible, to know these things. But today, there are people in Yisrael dedicated to physical new moon sightings and physical inspection of natural barley crops. We have to our advantage the new technology of e-mail and [almost] instant communication across vast distances. These dedicated people are willing to share these sightings and observations freely with all who are interested.
    Should we then not negate the currently [human] accepted methods and go back to Biblical (astronomical & agricultural) Hebrew calendar now that the means exists to return to the origins of divine time-keeping?

    Shabbat shalom

  56. Robert Wentzel says:

    By chance landed on this website yesterday..> http://www.torahteachers.com/

    I so wish the guy would have used less sarcasm as I have read the data he provides twice and are still trying to figure out.

    John kan jy bietjie gaan loer asb.

  57. Robert Wentzel says:

    Haai John en ander…
    Eerstens, ‘n gesseende Pesach vir julle daar in die Kaap en elders.

    My kop is heel deurmekaar met die 14de Aviv ! en graag wil ek vra of die 14de [kruisiging] sigselwe, nie ook deel is van die tydperk wat bekend staan as “Pesach” nie

    Tel net die 7 dae van ongesuurde brode dan as die “eerste” en die “laaste” dae van die periode?

    John, kan jy dan ook die volgende meer duidelik maak….
    Lev 23:5 “‘In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, between sundown and complete darkness, comes Pesach for ADONAI.
    Lev 23:7 On the first day you are to have a holy convocation; don’t do any kind of ordinary work.

    Ai ! dis mooilik om hierdie dinge onder die knieg te kry ! en ek en my vroutjie spartel met mekaar daaroor !

    • John says:

      Ek het probeer om ‘n verduideliking van hierdie hele aangeleentheid te gee, in antwoord op die vraag wat jy rakende die kalender gevra het. Die aand waarvan Lev 23:5 praat is die aand NA AFLOOP VAN die 14de dag van die Eerste maand, wat terselfdertyd ook die Fees van Ongesuurde Brode inlui. Die voorbereidings vir die Pesagmaal (onder meer ook die verwydering van suurdeeg) vind plaas in die dag-gedeelte van die 14 de dag van die Eerste Maand. Die maaltyd self is uiteraard in die aand, ter herinnering aan die maaltyd wat geëet is in die aand (of nag) toe die volk uit Mietsrayiem getrek het. Pesag is by uitnemendheid die dag van voorbereiding vir die Fees van Ongesuurde Brode. Terloops, Y’shua het die Pesagmaaltyd saam met sy dissipels alreeds die vorige aand geëet, omdat Hy geweet het dat Hyself die volgende dag as Pesaglam “geslag” sou word.

  58. Robert Wentzel says:

    John dankie
    Ons hou die avondmaal [nagmaal] op/in die aand van die 13de begin 14de Aviv….
    Sou jy se^ ons is reg/verkeerd?
    byvoorbaat dankie
    Robert

  59. John says:

    Robert, ek kan (en wil) nie ‘n beoordeling doen van die manier hoe julle of andere die Pesag vier nie. In ‘n wêreld waarin daar baie verwarring oor hierdie soort aangeleenthede bestaan, glo ek dat Yahweh ons harte aansien en diegene seën wat met hulle hele hart op Hom gerig is. Ek hoor egter in jou vraag dat jy werklik begeer om hierin aan die Skrif gehoorsaam te wees. Hoe ek die Skrif verstaan is dat Pesag op sigself nie ‘n fees is nie, maar die voorbereiding vir die Fees van Ongesuurde Brode. Op talle plekke in die Skrif word aangedui dat die Fees van Ongesuurde Brode sewe dae lank is en dat daar vir SEWE dae geen suurdeeg in die kamp en in mense se huise gevind mag word nie. Waar kom hierdie voorskrif vandaan? Sonder enige twyfel van die feit dat die volk Yiesraél op die aand / nag van hulle uittog uit Mietsrayiem HAASTIG moes voorbereidings tref en onder meer ONGESUURDE BRODE moes eet (dit wil sê brode wat vinnig gemaak is en nie deur die normale proses van insuur, rys en wag voorberei is nie). As ‘n mens nou hierdie aand / nag vier AAN DIE BEGIN van die 14 de dag van die eerste maand, beteken dit dat jy vir AGT DAE lank ongesuurde brode gaan eet en nie SEWE DAE soos wat die Skrif voorskryf nie.

    As ‘n mens ‘n hoofstuk soos Shemot (Exodus) 12 rustig (‘n paar maal) deurlees, word dit duidelik dat vers 18 wat só lui “In die eerste maand, op die veertiende dag van die maand, IN DIE AAND, moet julle ongesuurde brode eet, tot op die een en twintigste dag van die maand, in die aand”, net op één manier verstaan kan word: Ongesuurde brode moet geëet word vanaf die aand AAN DIE EINDE van die 14 de dag tot en met die aand AAN DIE EINDE van die 21 ste dag van die eerste maand. As die Skrif praat van ‘n sekere dag, in die aand (of ook in sommige gevalle: “tussen die aande”), dan verwys dit na die aand NA AFLOOP van daardie dag. Dit kan onder meer ook gesien word in Wayyiekra (Lev) 23:32 waar daar verwys word na die periode waartydens ‘n mens jou moet verootmoedig met die oog op Yom Kippur: “’n Dag van volkome rus moet dit vir julle wees, en julle moet jul verootmoedig. Op die negende van die maand in die aand, van aand tot aand, moet julle jul Shabbat hou.” Yom Kippur val op die tiende dag van die sewende maand, maar ‘n mens moet begin om die dag te hou op die NEGENDE VAN DIE MAAND, IN DIE AAND. Uit die aard van die saak is hierdie aand nie die aand waarmee die negende dag van die maand BEGIN nie (want dan sou ‘n mens twee dae lank Yom Kippur hou!), maar wel die aand NA AFLOOP VAN die negende dag van die maand.

    As hierdie verduideliking vir jou sin maak, beteken dit GEENSINS dat julle Pesag viering gisteraand sonder betekenis of waarde was nie. Almal van ons is in ‘n proses van groei en kan regstellings maak soos wat ons vorentoe beweeg op die pad van geloof.

  60. Robert Wentzel says:

    Dankie John.

  61. Robert Wentzel says:

    Wat moet verwyder word uit ons huise ?
    Verskriklik interesant >>> http://www.therefinersfire.org/yeast_or_leaven.htm

  62. Jeff says:

    Could anyone tell me of this ” Brit Chadasha”

  63. Chris says:

    “Robert Wentzel – wat moet verwyder word uit ons huise?”

    Interessante artikel. Die is seker die verkeerde forum, maar sal graag wil weet wat ander hiervan dink.

  64. Elena says:

    Listen to Hatikvah: The Hope, every Sunday from 2 – 4pm on Life Radio.. [URL not working any longer – JW].
    Hatikva is dedicated to spreading the good news of the Messiah, Yeshua Hamashiach / Jesus Christ to all from the southern tip of Africa to Jerusalem, Judea and Samaria to the rest of the world. We are all grafted into the Olive tree and the Branches that was cut off will be grafted back in again. (Romans 11:17 – 24). Romans 11:27: “The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; 27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins.”

    This weekend is Purim. In Purim’s call to action, there are some subtle parallels between Mordechai and the Ruach HaKodesh (Holy Spirit) and Esther, a Picture of the Body of Messiah. Purim, however, is more than a time to remember. It is also a time for Believers around the world to heed the call of the Ruach HaKodesh (Holy Spirit) to rise up like Esther on behalf of the Jewish People. Tune in to Life Radio on Sunday from 2pm – 4pm (SAT) as we journey through the Book of Esther (Megillat Esther). As Purim is kept with great joy this weekend, remember Esther’s bravery in rising up and speaking out on behalf of the Jewish People. It takes courage to resist the “Hamans” of this world and stand firm against popular opinion in our culture, which is most often opposed to God and righteousness. In these end times, it will take courage to count the cost and say with Esther, “If I perish, I perish.”

    Purim this weekend is a Call to Courage!

  65. Richard Ewert says:

    Biblically, YahShua should be our guide in all things. Per YahShua, per Yochanan 11:9:

    YahShua answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.

    Then you have other versus that support the fact that the equinox didn’t even exist until after the death of YahShua…

    Matthew 24:22
    And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

    Mark 13:20
    And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect’s sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

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